tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7366909960546184927.post5163365022999298080..comments2023-06-11T02:19:27.429-07:00Comments on Academic Cog: Grad school as enrichment exercise?Sisyphushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09880634753539329199noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7366909960546184927.post-21937318157033805912010-01-28T13:49:22.410-08:002010-01-28T13:49:22.410-08:00I went and got an MA for enrichment. I found it fr...I went and got an MA for enrichment. I found it frightening for 6 months, and difficult for the whole 2 years. I'm not rich of from money. I went to a state school, did fine with the teaching stipend living in the midwest, and by the end of the MA program, decided I wanted to keep going to school. <br /><br />I liked my dissertation; it did make me miserable a lot, but I genuinely liked doing it. I know that writing sucks, but really, it's sad to hear that people hate their lives so much that all the work is not worth it. For me, the best part was getting to be part of a program with so many likeminded and interesting people--try finding that in a reading group (have you ever actually been in one of those? um, *that* can be really far from enriching. Friends you love aren't necessarily going to love to talk about books the way you want to).<br /><br />I should admit: I got a tenure track job at the end, but many of my peers didn't get one, and they are all gainfully employed at universities, non-profits, publishers, tech companies, educational software companies, and magazines. They don't resent their time in the program. And their degrees got them a better salary and they beat out people who didn't have them for their positions. But I went to a phd program where most people were well-adjusted, cared about their research, but were also fairly flexible about what they did afterward. <br /><br />So I'm a little pollyanna about this issue. I didn't think an English MA would lead to a big paycheck, but I did think I'd learn stuff and I was right. For reasons not related to my dissertation, but related to my experience in the world of being cheap labor, I also became a better citizen--more aware of labor issues and the political aspects of education and administration. I also had free days in which to be an activist and volunteer with the grad program schedule. I really grew up in that environment, and became the civic participant that I am now because I went there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7366909960546184927.post-47822866348589626192010-01-20T19:20:23.659-08:002010-01-20T19:20:23.659-08:00Where I work we have an MA program in English. Th...Where I work we have an MA program in English. The majority of students get funding (in the form of an English 101 section each quarter). Also, before The Great Recession, many got jobs at 2-year-colleges teaching comp, something they wanted to do in the first place. Many have gone into the tech industry, which is (still) thriving in this part of the woods, so to speak. So it's not all for nothing. But, yeah, the idea of going just for the love of literature is not practical, unless you're "of money" and therefore don't have to teach comp, which takes up so much time that you end up having very little time to read anything outside of your two seminars. <br /><br />In other words, point taken!Phttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16625377988852170518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7366909960546184927.post-78053511214802872122010-01-20T05:57:55.971-08:002010-01-20T05:57:55.971-08:00I just wanted to chime in and say that my experien...I just wanted to chime in and say that my experience (also at a non-PhD granting institution) is pretty much identical to Shane's in regard to the MA. And I can tell you that as far as I'm aware absolutely none of our students have ambitions to go on to the PhD, nor are they being encouraged in that direction. I could go on at length about teaching a grad student population who sees an MA as enrichment (and thus submits work that would be unacceptable from my undergrads), but that's totally unrelated to your post :)<br /><br />Also unrelated to this post - I didn't respond to your retraining post because I took the weekend off email. I think (briefly) that the suggestion that one can just run out and become an academic librarian or an administrator or whatever with one's liberal arts PhD is dead wrong. Perhaps an administrative path could be viable if one had been doing things all throughout grad school to prepare one for it, but generally? All this talk of "just sell your skills in another area! stop being a baby!" is really ill-informed, at least as far as I can tell.Dr. Crazyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12457967076373916629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7366909960546184927.post-78488444920701596382010-01-19T21:02:35.962-08:002010-01-19T21:02:35.962-08:00My Ph.D program gave you an MA for completing hte ...My Ph.D program gave you an MA for completing hte first year. We had a whole bunch of people (unfunded) my first year, who left after realizing that Ph.D. in history was a professional degree, and you were no longer so focused on "cool and interesting things that happened" and more on methodologies and interpretations.<br /><br />Many had gone to SLACs, and expected the Ph.D. to be a long extension of undergrad. I think they all had productive lives after they left the university, and it wasn't traumatic.Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09716705206734059708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7366909960546184927.post-25988749770066639272010-01-19T10:07:23.120-08:002010-01-19T10:07:23.120-08:00Now, I'm not a lit person -- I'm in social...Now, I'm not a lit person -- I'm in social science -- so the idea of an "enrichment"-style MA program doesn't fully compute in my terms. I gather that this idea is most prevalent among English grads and related literary fields. In my field, an MA is not just a dry run for the larger, more challenging work of the PhD studies, but it often feeds into the latter directly. My own program is MA/PhD, so it's hard for the MA students not to notice, if they didn't know already, where all of this is going. I don't know a soul in my entire program, in all of my [redacted] years here, who entered on such flimsy motivation and made it through. The very few who even got in that way ended up withdrawing, once it became clear that their fantasy did not correlate with the reality of academia. The only people who leave after the MA are those who get a better funding offer for PhD studies elsewhere (very uncommon), and those who essentially are mustered out as unfit for the discipline (the majority).<br /><br />In my field, claiming "enrichment" as impetus to go for the MA would seem patently insane to anyone, including the profs who need TAs each year. Even they would (and do) counsel prospectives that this is not a smart way to go about things. But in my field, the MA studies are more obviously vocational in nature; unless a particularly candid English prof explained the situation to one of these hypothetical students, they really might not see it from our point of view: that graduate studies are job training, and that those of us who have suffered for years to become qualified professionals resent the implication that some of our years of martyrdom are basically College Redux for confused twentysomethings and sound way cooler than growing up. And, since those MA programs are frequently unfunded or barely funded for students, the universities that offer them make (and save!) a lot of money. MA programs that present themselves to prospectives as dignified post-collegiate enrichment are likely gravy trains for their universities, and no one wants to turn off that tap.<br /><br />But, like a number of people appear to mention in these comments and elsewhere, no one is going to know any of this if people who know better don't publicize it.Dr. Kosharyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07777054788430587906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7366909960546184927.post-27175405407740520432010-01-19T10:06:57.388-08:002010-01-19T10:06:57.388-08:00I will formally take up my place atop the fence an...I will formally take up my place atop the fence and say that I see both sides to this issue.<br /><br />On the emotional level, I definitely feel you on the shock and outrage at people who seem to meander into MA programs, and think about meandering into PhD work from there. Meandering people in general drive me nuts, because I'm one of those people who strenuously plans and re-plans for best results. I did three days of research before buying a router last week. I'm certainly not going to jump into years of graduate study just because I like the subject! Talking at length with people whose entire lives seem to be dictated by happy-go-lucky throws of the dice exhausts me.<br /><br />But...one could make a reasonable argument that, within that set of academics who knew from the outset that they wanted to be academics, I am as meandering as they come. That's a post of its own, so suffice it to say that I can see how the idea would have appeal to happy-go-lucky people. More to the point, though, I see how the idea appeals to a probably much larger set of MA students: rich kids who don't know what to do with their lives. This is not a total knock on them, really; it's a simple fact that a lot of kids coming out of college come from families with the means to subsidize them in those early post-collegiate years. In a job market like this, a lot of those kids have no idea what they'd want to do even if the market were begging for new talent, let alone right now when the economy is shrinking and shuddering. Just like many have said before, there's an attraction to something that (on the face of it) looks like a warm and inviting continuation of college. So, to well-meaning and perhaps rather privileged ex-students who never have had to provide for themselves, this even looks more like work than some of the crappier entry-level jobs being advertised; and surely, a lot of their parents see more value and prestige in MA studies than taking that half-time gig at the copy shop.<br /><br />(continued in next comment)Dr. Kosharyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07777054788430587906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7366909960546184927.post-74450127946644130082010-01-19T07:55:09.576-08:002010-01-19T07:55:09.576-08:00One more thought: I wouldn't compare getting a...One more thought: I wouldn't compare getting an MA to "going to church to improve yourself." I'd compare it to taking flying lessons even if you have no intention of becoming a professional pilot, or learning judo, or something else expensive and time-consuming and not immediately practical, but possibly quite fulfilling. If you have the burning desire and you can afford it, why not? Especially if it gives you advanced credentials for some of the other positions I mentioned before--HS teacher, low-level university administrator, etc.<br /><br />And by the way, another category of "enrichment" student I've encountered is the retiree who wants something more rigorous and structured than reading novels on his/her own time...<br /><br />Why be so judgmental of people whose approach to education is less practical (even mercenary?) than yours seems to be? So long as they go in knowing the realities of the situation, more power to them in my book.Shane in SLChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09009969830290878311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7366909960546184927.post-57360791635851553732010-01-19T07:10:27.884-08:002010-01-19T07:10:27.884-08:00Seriously??? Two fucking years of "enrichment...<i>Seriously??? Two fucking years of "enrichment"? Who does that? Who the hell does that?</i><br /><br />Ummm... I have lots of master's students pass through my department's (non-PhD granting) grad program who do. Some of them are clerical staff at the university who want a MA/MS so they'll be qualified for promotions. Some of them are HS teachers who need an advanced degree to get a raise. Some of them are women whose husbands are 2 years behind them because they took 2 years off to go on a mission, and so the women need to kill time before they start having children. Some of them already have jobs, but would like to teach a class at Salt Lake Community College every now and then, and an MA lets them do that. Some of them are a bit lost, and not sure they want to pursue a PhD, and they figure two years in an MA program will help them figure it out. I would lump all of these students under the general category of "seeking enrichment."<br /><br />Seriously, it's not that uncommon, and it's not a giant scam. I think you're a bit blinkered by your position in a PhD-granting program, where presumably the MA students are already on the PhD track.Shane in SLChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09009969830290878311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7366909960546184927.post-22417911223417996672010-01-19T06:26:35.602-08:002010-01-19T06:26:35.602-08:00I was going to add that many MA programs (in histo...I was going to add that many MA programs (in history) are only one year, and that students are often funded. So in that respect - why NOT do it for "enrichment"? (Maybe "personal satisfaction" is a better term?) I think many students in their early 20s could afford to take a year (or even maybe two) off from the work world without significant harm. They might not be in a better position regarding employment than they were before they started, but I don't think they'd be significantly behind their peers in job experience/training. All the retraining you talk about, many people don't rush out of undergrad to get those additional degrees; people often do crap jobs for a few years and then move into something different. I think the MA can fit into place here. But I say this also because I've had a lot of students who "wanted to go to graduate school," do a year or so of MA, and realize/decide it's just not for them. So, useful experience.<br /><br />However, I also agree with you that if you want enrichment, you can do it on your own dime much more easily in the humanities than in many fields. And in my grad program, there was no distinction between MA and PhD students, so the MA students would get sucked in by the whole academic machine anyway. But that's probably not as much the case in every program.<br /><br />I do think the important point is the bigger one: that the PhD (in the humanities) *is* a professional degree, and that there is NO REASON to undertake it unless you're trying to get a job as a professor, and the chances of getting that job are diminishing ridiculously. I see a lot of people taking the flip side to this: that because you can't get a job, you shouldn't get a PhD in order to get a job; get a PhD because you love the subject, you want to learn, you want to develop research and writing skills. I understand why people might come to that conclusion, but I think it's bullshit; spending 7-10 years of your life impoverished and not saving for retirement, not gaining skills that are easy to market in other areas, is NOT a worthwhile return on loving your subject. All the arguments you make against "enrichment," I apply to the PhD program.<br /><br />(I think I should have some conclusion here but I don't, so I'll just stop.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7366909960546184927.post-19598733456465588652010-01-18T19:48:49.314-08:002010-01-18T19:48:49.314-08:00OK. Well, hmmm. Now I know what it feels like to b...OK. Well, hmmm. Now I know what it feels like to be at the receiving end of some of that anger, anyway.<br /><br />I should clarify that I <i>don't ever</i> instigate the idea that a student should pursue an MA for enrichment--"enrichment" is also maybe not the best word to use, as I guess you are right that it could imply frivolous dilettantism; I was just trying to identify a purpose different from specific professional training.<br /><br />What I am talking about is the frequent situation in which u/g students come to talk to me about graduate school who are very enthusiastic about their experiences studying literature and keen to keep doing more of that. Enthusiasm about literature would be a terrible reason to pursue a PhD, and I tell them that as emphatically as I can, with (I hope) due attention to things like the demands of the degree and the disastrous and irrational job market, and the differences between loving books and working as a professor even if you get that elusive job. I also talk as clearly as I can about differences between the kind of work they have typically done as undergraduates and the nature of and expectations for work in graduate seminars. For some, all this discouraging talk is enough to turn them aside from the idea. Nobody ever said anything like this to me when I started applying to graduate school, and I wish they had; usually, it seems nobody else has ever said anything like this to the students, either, who often seem surprised that their own enthusiasm is not met with unqualified enthusiasm from me in return.<br /><br />But many MA programs in Canada are only 1 year (ours included) and we admit only funded students. So some students, despite all the warnings, are still attracted, not altogether unreasonably, to the prospect of doing one more (funded) year of formal study in a field they are intellectually excited about--and getting an additional degree that, at least as far as I been told by former students and friends working in other fields, can be a boost for students if they choose to head into education, law, journalism, the civil service, or other kinds of work involving research and writing. Whatever the personal or professional benefits they hope for and might achieve, I would certainly stress that they should not do an MA on their own dime, and that they should closely consider any teaching obligations that come along with their funding package. You are right that they could get a job and read on their own time, but I don't see it as obvious that an MA is something I should advise them against altogether. I don't think that means I (or they) are treating the MA as an expensive way to indulge a hobby, or as a waste of time compared to "moving forward in some actual career ladder." Most of my own former MA supervisees (about 15, I think, at last count) are on career ladders of various interesting kinds now (a handful, of course, have gone on into Ph.D. programs--at least I know we had "the talk" before they made that choice, for what that's worth). I don't think any of them started the MA program thinking it was a "fucking book club" and I'm pretty sure they believe that it was a year well spent. Perhaps I flatter myself and my colleagues, but I also believe they learned things from their degree (from us, from their colleagues in seminars) that would have been harder to do by downloading our reading lists and working through them independently (if not, well, that wouldn't say much for the concept of graduate "teaching," would it?). That would be one answer to your question about "why even go," wouldn't it? <br /><br />It's late here and I can only hope I'm not making this worse by trying to explain it better. I'm sorry to have made you so mad. I'll go back to lurking now.Rohan Maitzenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12111722115617352412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7366909960546184927.post-68713845537108476442010-01-18T18:03:29.252-08:002010-01-18T18:03:29.252-08:00For what it's worth, I agree with Maitzen'...For what it's worth, I agree with Maitzen's take on the PhD and am glad that she's making those statements; I'm just blown out of the water that anybody could think a two (or three, for most of my friends) year master's that is nothing more than personal enrichment would be something you'd encourage students to enroll in.Sisyphushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09880634753539329199noreply@blogger.com